How to Save the World?

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[Jana]

Yes, the psychological implications of climate change/peak oil will be rather like that of colonialism...in fact I am struggle to get myself into a up-lifted stance to the future. Younger people might have an easier time of it, as will those who do not look too deeply at the underbelly of humanity. Still observing the grieving stages, self observation and collective bolstering will get us all through this transition, and have it be the most exciting, meaningful time of our lives perhaps...but we have to approach it like an Apollo mission, and become ever more conscious in our process.

Aussies are extremely resourceful, upbeat, community minded and innovative...they will fair fine in the changes as long as they do not operate from the politics of fear and build lots of nuc power stations or something.

Recent email from my aussie friend:
> RAIN !! Bloody hell!! - its been pissing down all summer!! Some
> places in western New South Wales had 5 INCHES in an hour !!!
>
> And yes - we got Peter Garett into government - mind you there is now
> a special office for Climate Change with its very own minister
> responsible (who happens to be the first openly lesbian woman in
> Cabinet : ). Peter Garret made a few blunders during the election
> campaign - it was very evident that he is new to the pressures of
> politics, but he will no doubt learn and he retains the Ministry for
> the Environment - provided we still have one after all this rain.
>

[jimtzu]

note: paul craig roberts is a reaganite republican

here is a site where you can read H.R. 1955: Violent Radicalization and Homegrown Terrorism Prevention Act of 2007
(i'm sure your congressman hasn't  ) http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c110:4:./temp/~c110HaSJmN::

a somewhat extreme look at this bill:

Thinking for yourself is now a crime

By Paul Craig Roberts

01/04/08 "ICH " -- -- What was the greatest failure of 2007?  President Bush’s “surge” in Iraq?  The decline in the value of the US dollar?  Subprime mortgages?  No. The greatest failure of 2007 was the newly sworn in Democratic Congress.

The American people’s attempt in November 2006 to rein in a rogue government, which has committed the US to costly military adventures while running roughshod over the US Constitution, failed.  Replacing Republicans with Democrats in the House and Senate has made no difference. 

The assault on the US Constitution by the Democratic Party is as determined as the assault by the Republicans.  On October 23, 2007, the House passed a bill sponsored by California Democratic congresswoman Jane Harman, chairwoman of a Homeland Security subcommittee, that overturns the constitutionally guaranteed rights to free expression, association, and assembly.

The bill passed the House on a vote of 404-6.  In the Senate the bill is sponsored by Maine Republican Susan Collins and apparently faces no meaningful opposition.

Harman’s bill is called the “Violent Radicalization and Homegrown Terrorism Prevention Act.” [ http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h110-1955 ] When HR 1955 becomes law, it will create a commission tasked with identifying extremist people, groups, and ideas.  The commission will hold hearings around the country, taking testimony and compiling a list of dangerous people and beliefs.  The bill will, in short, create massive terrorism in the United States.  But the perpetrators of terrorism will not be Muslim terrorists; they will be government agents and fellow citizens.

We are beginning to see who will be the inmates of the detention centers being built in the US by Halliburton under government contract.

Who will be on the “extremist beliefs” list?  The answer is:  civil libertarians, critics of Israel, 9/11 skeptics, critics of the administration’s wars and foreign policies, critics of the administration’s use  of kidnapping, rendition, torture and violation of the Geneva Conventions, and critics of the administration’s spying on Americans.  Anyone in the way of a powerful interest group--such as environmentalists opposing politically connected developers--is also a candidate for the list.

The “Extremist Beliefs Commission” is the mechanism for identifying Americans who pose “a threat to domestic security” and a threat of “homegrown terrorism” that “cannot be easily prevented through traditional federal intelligence or law enforcement efforts.” 

This bill is a boon for nasty people.  That SOB who stole your girlfriend, that hussy who stole your boyfriend, the gun owner next door--just report them to Homeland Security as holders of extreme beliefs.  Homeland Security needs suspects, so they are not going to check.  Under the new regime, accusation is evidence.  Moreover, “our” elected representatives will never admit that they voted for a bill and created an “Extremist Belief Commission” for which there is neither need nor constitutional basis.

That boss who harasses you for coming late to work--he’s a good candidate to be reported; so is that minority employee that you can’t fire for any normal reason.  So is the husband of that good-looking woman you have been unable to seduce.  Every kind of quarrel and jealousy can now be settled with a phone call to Homeland Security.

Soon Halliburton will be building more detention centers.

Americans are so far removed from the roots of their liberty that they just don’t get it.  Most Americans don’t know what habeas corpus is or why it is important to them.   But they know what they want, and Jane Harman has given them a new way to settle scores and to advance their own interests.

Even educated liberals believe that the US Constitution is a “living document” that can be changed to mean whatever it needs to mean in order to accommodate some new important cause, such as abortion and legal privileges for minorities and the handicapped.  Today it is the “war on terror” that the Constitution must accommodate.  Tomorrow it can be the war on whomever or whatever.

Think about it.  More than six years ago the World Trade Center and Pentagon were attacked.  The US government blamed it on al Qaeda.  Scant evidence has been presented.  The 9/11 Commission Report has been subjected to devastating criticism by a large number of qualified people--including the commission’s chairman and co-chairman. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/02/opinion/02kean.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&oref=slogin

Since 9/11 there have been no terrorist attacks in the US.  The FBI has tried to orchestrate a few, but the “terrorist plots” never got beyond talk organized and led by FBI agents.  There are no visible extremist groups other than the neoconservatives that control the government in Washington.  But somehow the House of Representatives overwhelmingly sees a need to create a commission to take testimony and search out extremist views (outside of Washington, of course).

This search for extremist views comes after President Bush and the Justice (sic) Department declare that the President can ignore habeas corpus, ignore the Geneva Conventions, seize people without evidence, hold them indefinitely without presenting charges, torture them until they confess to some made up crime, and take over the government by declaring an emergency. Of course, none of these “patriotic” views are extremist. 

The search for extremist views follows also the granting of contracts to Halliburton to build detention centers in the US.  No member of Congress or the executive branch ever explained the need for the detention centers or who the detainees would be.  Of course, there is nothing extremist about building detention centers in the US for undisclosed inmates.

Clearly the detention centers are not meant to just stand there empty.  Thanks to 2007’s greatest failure--the Democratic Congress--there is to be an “Extremist Beliefs Commission” to secure inmates for Bush’s detention centers. 

President Bush promises us that the wars he has launched will cause the “untamed fire of freedom” to “reach the darkest corners of our world.”  Meanwhile in America the fire of freedom has not only been tamed but also is being extinguished. 

The light of liberty has gone out in the United States.

[Jana]

Yea, he is good, espec. in talks with Alex Jones, he pretty much has their number. Roberts said that they would probably do a false flag and blow up one of their US aircraft carriers off of Iran.
www.wexlerwantshearings.com is the Judicary committee where you sign up to get hearings on impeachment.
Naomi Wolfe has done a nice job of comparing current era with prewar Germany...in The End of America www.youtube.com/watch?v=b131iN3hOyk&NR=1  —Naomi Wolfe on fascism
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dpZap0GFFk —Harvey Wasserman Nuke vs. Green
Obama is wavering on the nuclear issue, Hillary is beating on both sides of the table, Edwards is at least sane.

[Jana]

The principles of permaculture (like the Natural Step) are just common (uncommon) sense. I have been thinking that the systems meme of permaculture can be applied to anything to reap greater results...even sociology and politics. For example say with nastiness and bad humors...if you think you can keep it away from you by being nasty first, then this just increases the general % of nastiness in the world. If however you use such social toxicity as manure, put it in the compost or around your creative-fruit bearing trees, then this recycling process adds to the goodness, truth and beauty quotient in the world. This nonreactivity or pollution-processing can be applied to any problem in personal life, business and international affairs.

Permaculture and native systems is really the ephemeralization (Buckminsterfication) of the natural world. Considering that the breakdown of culture, aspartame riddled, ADD and the degenerative disease pandemic...will plow on as usual, because it appears that a certain % just never switch on, and never get the message...and the culture as a whole-the one that is dying-is perfectly set up to run the environment into the ground and degrade our humanity. Survival as a refugee in the dying culture is marginal and somewhat pointless...however building the new models through which others can learn when they are ready seems about the only viable option. It is futile to race around the world telling everyone what to do, when they are still involved in the standard cultural dream...while not establishing our own units of experimentation.

[Jana]

I haven't gotten into the permanent-culture systems language yet...but I can see that Decentralization leads to the optimum order. In the parasitic culture the thinking is that hierachical design with one central leader leads to the greatest order. However in actuality what happens is the one guy at the top acts in his own interests while sucking energy out of the collective sociosphere. If we consider decentralization on all levels then we see that Point Of Use and Serial Resource Tributaries (Resource Flow Trees), plus Zero Waste are essential to any Noble-Sustainable Culture (Permanent-Culture). Decentralization leads to greater efficiency, economy, integration and minimum waste...more utility and less infrastructure.

For example as Point of Use comes into effect, wires in buildings would be a thing of the past. There would be a small solar collector on the external wall that looks simply like an architectural feature...this will connect to a liquid crystal battery inside the wall itself, and directly on the inside wall will a light fixture or other appliance. Eventually such Decentralized Direct Use energy systems will simply feed off of zero point itself. I see zero point as the main energy source in high tech cultures within 50 years. http://myfacilitate.net/jana/Solaris.htm

In the war between sanity and insanity the technology of Permanent-Culture will ultimately win because it will be the only economically viable means of survival as Decentralization and Independence come to the fore, and the parasitic culture dies off. Regenerative Systems (Beyond Sustainability) will become increasingly selected as the moral demands of the consumer increase. In evolutionary terms it is survival of the smartest...the most aligned with the depth of Cosmic Truth that will thrive in Noble-Condition....for the parasitic culture ultimately leads to genetic decay.


SOLARTOPIA! Our Green-Powered Earth, A.D. 2030 by Harvey Wasserman solartopia.org
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dpZap0GFFk —Harvey Wasserman Nuke vs. Green

Harvey Wasserman article: http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/01/05/6191/
—According to the National Renewable Energy Laboratory, some $6 billion in new wind farms are currently under construction in this country. Billions more are pouring in solar, bio-fuels, ocean thermal, wave, tidal and other forms of green power.

[Jana]

The central-power parasitic way is a kind of brute-technology that requires war, propaganda, and a largely dumb-sick and disempowered population  in order to survive. Cheney and cronies are actually investing in wind farms, while they are carrying out illegal oil wars and filling their coffers.
“Crude oil is the real ‘currency’ of the world,” said Lindsey Williams. He also said that they are going to keep raising the oil price to $150 a barrel.
Why are these people making a last ditched effort to extort money from the people and concentrate it into the hands of the few...probably in an attempt to gain total global control through implementing a star wars program.

If Bush (Carlyle Group) is going to Saudi Arabia they are probably raising funds for their next fiasco...probably an illegal war on Iran to implement regime change because Iran just changed over to selling oil in the Euro.

Bush trip to Middle East/Saudi Arabia only decided upon a few weeks ago - Jan. 8 through 16   http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article3315020.ece
http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2008/01/by_mark_silva_president_bush_4.html


5 Iranian fast boats and 3 Iranian ships hassling US Navy for 15 minutes this weekend. 1/4/08

Bush visits Saudi Arabia May’01
www.truthout.org/docs_01/0662.Bush.Saudi.htm
'Let's say Carlyle is going fund-raising in the Middle East and they bring Bush along,''
New ambassador to Saudi Arabia is another Bush/Carlyle Group crony…Oct’01
http://eyesonamerica.org/200110/10050102.html

Bush to Dispatch Powell to Mideast Jun’01

[Jana]

To the extent that religions are coercive, mythic and fundamentalist, they are brain damaging and retard social coevolution and communication. But even atheism can be used in this destructive way through rigid adherence to repetitive beliefs and thoughts. This repetition occurs through constantly efforting to define and identify the self in order to feel "like somebody" and to fandangle a "worthy" self. Rather than promote self development and spiritual maturity, there are certain tendencies in religious sects which play on our wounds and sense of unworthiness in order to fill the coffers of the church. This perpetuates the triggering of our original wounds, and as long as we play into this form of extortion, there is little possibility of any significant healing or growth...we remain tied to the religious organization through the pain of our wounds and the subsequent attempt at assuagement through tilth. And if Big Daddy gives us a pat on the back and our bolsters our ego, then we feel "OK" for a while.

""Discrimination is possible only in a state of complete freedom where one can perceive all the alternatives and so can choose from them. Any identification by the mind puts an end to the process of discrimination. Thus a mind that is committed to beliefs, ideals and principles is not a free mind, and is, therefore not a discriminating mind. It is a "dull" mind in the sense that it cannot see beyond the patterns it has placed before itself." The Negative Approach, Rohit Mehta

This is how ones Archetypal Matrix remains entrenched, as we spin web of our self perpetuating, self reinforcing, self fulfilling stories. Proving this, explaining that, self justifying this—torturing ourselves and others with our mind and emotions.

[Jana]

The four marks of the Fascist spirit-nationalism and racism, a love of violence and war, irrationalism, and revolutionary presumption...fascism wrought a "sacralization of politics" that made it demonic but that also allowed it to sink its hooks deep into the soul.

Rather Wilhelm Reichian:
"This fascist symbolization creates a particular kind of psychic economy which places sexuality in the service of destruction. According to this intellectual theory, despite its sexually-charged politics, fascism is an anti-eros, 'the core of all fascist propaganda is a battle against everything that constitutes enjoyment and pleasure'." wiki

"Fascism is an authoritarian political ideology (generally tied to a mass movement) that considers individual and social interests subordinate to the interests of the state or party. Fascists seek to forge a type of national unity, usually based on (but not limited to) ethnic, cultural, racial, religious attributes. The key attribute is intolerance of others: other religions, languages, political views, economic systems, cultural practices, etc. Various scholars attribute different characteristics to fascism, but the following elements are usually seen as its integral parts: nationalism, statism, militarism, totalitarianism, anti-communism, corporatism, populism, collectivism, and opposition to political and economic liberalism." wiki

Fascism is a form of sadomasicism on a national scale...the New World Orderists, want to make it sadomasicism on a Global scale. It involves a criminal misuse of the law for "preditory" gains, and a vast victim population that is silenced into conformity through fear.

Last night I didn't go to sleep till after 4.30 and then I have elaborate dreams. In one of the dreams I was attacked by a largish Mexican guy...whereupon I turned on him in affection and said, "all right then lets get it on." This flipped his attack, he returned to rationality and said oh, no sorry I am gay.
This was quite different from the one attack I actually had in my life, when the guy engaged a tussle, I said "alright, now you are going to get it!" and proceeded to fight with extreme uneffectiveness.

Grokking the sadomasicistic basis of fascism should allow us to better avoid its full blown forms.

[jimtzu]

this is interesting:



Sibel Edmonds, Turkey and the Bomb
A Real 9/11 Cover-Up?
By DAVE LINDORFF

If a new article just published Saturday in the Times of London based upon information provided by US government whistleblower Sibel Edmonds, a 37-year-old former Turkish language translator for the FBI, we have not only solid evidence of prior knowledge of 9-11 by high up US government officials, but evidence of treasonous activity by many of those same officials involving efforts to provide US nuclear secrets to America's enemies, even including Al Qaeda.

The story also casts a chilling light on the so-called "accidental" flight of six nuclear-armed cruise missiles aboard an errant B-52 that flew last Aug. 30 from Minot AFB in North Dakota to Barksdale AFB in Shreveport, Louisiana.

The Sunday Times reports that Edmonds, whose whistleblowing efforts have been studiously ignored by what passes for the news media in American news media, approached the Rupert Murdoch-owned British paper a month ago after reading a report there that an Al-Qaeda leader had been training some of the 9-11 hijackers at a base in Turkey, a US NATO alley, under the noses of the Turkish military.

Edmonds, who was recruited by the FBI after 9-11 because of her Turkish and Farsi language skills, has long been claiming that in her FBI job of covertly monitoring conversations between Turkish, Israeli, Persian and other foreign agents and US contacts, including a backlog of untranslated tapes dating back to 1997, she had heard evidence of "money laundering, drug imports and attempts to acquire nuclear and conventional weapons technology." But the Turkish training for 9-11 rang more alarm bells and made her decide that talking behind closed doors to Congress or the FBI was not enough. She had to go public.

Edmonds claims in the Times that even as she was providing evidence of moles within the US State Department, the Pentagon, and the nuclear weapons establishment, who were providing nuclear secrets for cash, through Turkey, to Pakistan's intelligence agency, the Inter-Services Intelligence, or ISI, agencies within the Bush administration were actively working to block investigation and to shield those who were committing the acts of treason.

Pakistan's ISI is known to have had, and to still maintain close contacts with Al-Qaeda. Indeed, the Times notes that Pakistan's nuclear god-father, General Mahmoud Ahmad, was accused of sanctioning a $100,000 wire payment to Mohammed Atta, one of the 9/11 hijackers, immediately before the attacks.

Edmonds claims, in the Times article, that following the 9-11 attacks, FBI investigators took a number of Turkish and Pakistani operatives into custody for questioning about foreknowledge of the attacks, but that a high-ranking US State Department official repeatedly acted to spirit them out of the country.

Edmonds was fired from her FBI translating job in 2002 after she accused a colleague of having illicit contact with Turkish officials. She has claimed that she was fired for being outspoken, and in 2005 her position was reportedly vindicated by the Office of Inspector General of the FBI, which concluded that she had been sacked for making valid complaints.

One of those whom Edmonds claims in the Times report was being investigated in connection with the nuclear information transfers was Pentagon analyst Lawrence Franklin. Franklin was convicted and jailed in 2006 for passing US defense information to American Israel Public Affairs Committee lobbyists and sharing classified information with an Israeli diplomat. Franklin, in 2001, was part of the Pentagon Office of Special Plans, a kind of shadow intelligence unit set up by the Bush administration inside the Pentagon whose job it was to gin up "evidence" to justify a war against Iraq. In that capacity, he (along with several other OSP members and arch neocon schemer Michael Ledeen) was also identified by Italian investigative journalists working for the newspaper La Republican, as having been at a crucial meeting in December 2001 in Rome with the Italian defense and intelligence service ministers. La Republicca reports that at that meeting a plan was hatched to fob off forged Niger embassy documents as evidence that Iraqi strongman Saddam Hussein was trying to buy uranium ore from Niger.

If Edmonds' story is correct, and Al-Qaeda, with the aid of Turkish government agents and Pakistani intelligence, with the help of US government officials, has been attempting to obtain nuclear materials and nuclear information from the U.S., it casts an even darker shadow over the mysterious and still unexplained incident last August 30, when a B-52 Stratofortress, based at the Minot strategic air base in Minot, ND, against all rules and regulations of 40 years' standing, loaded and flew off with six unrecorded and unaccounted for nuclear-tipped cruise missiles.

That incident only came to public attention because three as yet unidentified Air Force whistleblowers contacted a reporter at the Military Times newspaper, which ran a series of stories about it, some of which were picked up by other US news organizations.

An Air Force investigation into that incident, ordered by Defense Secretary Robert Gates, claimed improbably that the whole thing had been an "accident," but many veterans of the US Air Force and Navy with experience in handling nuclear weapons say that such an explanation is impossible, and argue that there had to have been a chain or orders from above the level of the base commander for such a flight to have occurred.

Incredibly, almost five months after that bizarre incident (which included several as yet unexplained deaths of B-52 pilots and base personnel occurring in the weeks shortly before and after the flight), in which six 150-kiloton warheads went missing for 36 hours, there has been no Congressional investigation and no FBI investigation into what happened.

Yet in view of Edmonds' story to the London Times, alleging that there has been an ongoing, active effort for some years by both Al Qaeda and by agents of two US allies, Turkey and Pakistan, to get US nuclear weapons secrets and even weapons, and that there are treasonous moles at work within the American government and nuclear bureaucracy aiding and abetting those efforts, surely at a minimum, a major public inquiry is called for.

Meanwhile, there is enough in just this one London Times story to keep an army of investigative reporters busy for years. So why, one has to ask, is this story appearing in a highly respected British newspaper, but not anywhere in the corporate US media?

[jimtzu]

a less hysterical look at the Bilderburg group

http://www.kpfa.org/archives/index.php?arch=23512

[Jana]

Yes well, if we look through the lens of the cosmic magician, you would have to agree that if one lives within a parasitic culture and has not yet transcended that culture, then one can be nothing BUT a parasite. We essentially have to learn via our suffering, indignation and disgust what it is to transcend parasiticism.

We have to learn from Dorion Sagan, Lynn Margulis, Steven Harding etc...what it is to live on a symbiotic planet. Dorion said (on youtube) that Gaia is a superorganism—a gestalt entity with a physiology.   Due to continuously developing environmental conditions, species must organize and maintain encoded in their structure a readily accessible permanently updated and expanding database along with updated environment-manipulation mechanisms. "The spacetime conditions for life's origin are maintained by life till  this day." The Self-Organizing Universe-Eric Jantsch

As the cosmic sage Terrence McKenna said, a direct Gnostic experience of reality requires that cultural filters first be perturbed. Yet it is not enough to merely "see" that we live in a world enhabited by the human parasite—for to see, and not repent and transcend is to be worse off than to be asleep in the sadofascist dream.

We must engage the lens of noble permanent-culture, and go beyond sustainability to the regenerative meme in order to save our soul, and the soul of the earth.

As we continue with this disasterous meme of the black vampire bat that is sucking the life out of Gaia. As we continue this suicidal track of oil, nuclear, coal and war. We can easily see that the ultimate outcome of such ignorant parasiticism is the complexification of ever increasing health problems for Gaia resulting in the demise of the parasite itself. We can re-member our noble condition by seeing far into the future as Terrence McKenna advises. To project our heartmind into the deep space of future time. Then we can know what it is to no longer be a cancer on the face of gaia.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUVg5UgC4T4&feature=related  —Best comedian I ever encountered...Dylan Moran

[Jana]

Boiling water for steam via nuclear is aesthetically an archane concept.
If you watch Hermann Scheer, Helen Caldicott and Harvey Wasserman...you will see that nuclear is uneconomical, it uses alot of hydrocarbons to build the plant, heats water, bleeds radioactivity into the environment and presents the ultimate terrorist target.

I can't find right off the years of operation it takes to breakeven financially...but I cannot see how it can be at all economical if nuclear power generally has massive [government] subsidies to keep them going...that is the tax payer both pays for their construction, subsidies their operation and buys the power. Thus it seems like a means of radical finanical extortion from  the population of a country.

It is yet another method to maintain the grip on centralized power/profit systems.
The vampire bats are trying to take investment money away from renewable energy...but it is the big corporations that stand to "profit" from enormous expenditures on constructing plants. By the time they are constructed there will be a vast array of new far more economical energy systems.
It would take 10 years to get one nuclear power plant up
Since 1974, there has not been a filled order for a nuclear power plant
www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/09/11/3761/

"“Contrary to industry propaganda nuclear power contributes substantially to
global warming. Fossil fuels used to mine and enrich uranium, construct and
decommission the reactor, transport and store the intensely radioactive
waste for eons of time produce global warming gases. Presently a gas fired
electricity generator emits three times more CO2 than a similar sized atomic
reactor, but as the supply of high grade uranium ore declines, a nuclear
plant will, within decades, generate as much CO2 as a gas fired generator.
Uranium supplies are finite. If global electricity was nuclear generated
today, only nine years supply of uranium remain.”” Helen Caldicott

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_z7cdDYP_zg&feature=related  —MIT Clean Tech/GABA Lecture with Dr. Hermann Scheer

Boiling water for steam via nuclear is aesthetically an archane concept.
Talk about brain dead...Charles D. Holland says we NEED NUCLEAR PLANTS IN THE HYDROGEN ECONOMY. Ie:Use electricity and heat from nuclear power plants in the production of hydrogen...that is from nuclear to steam to hydrogen...talk about a dyseconomy of use. This type of "thinker" either needs to be whiplashed until he can think straight, or be sent off into deep space. The corporations will use any stupid idea to get the contracts on building nuc. power plants...the money coming from an already bankrupt population.

"Next step is to massively fund renewables and offer no impediments to them hooking up to, and running an account on, the main grid. You add you get credit, detract get a bill. The savings will eventually outweigh the initial outlay. Once a ‘break even’ point is realized nukes & coal (hydrocarbons) are out the door. They won’t like it, but we aren’t asking; we’re DEMANDING!" Nanoo

www.energybulletin.net/15625.html
"It would take 10 years to get one nuclear power plant up even if there was no public protest," Dr Riedy said. "And all of the evidence from where they have been built [overseas] shows they have had to have massive [government] subsidies to keep them going."
Dr Mark Diesendorf, a senior lecturer at the Institute of Environmental Studies at the University of NSW, said a 1000-megawatt nuclear plant would cost at least $3 billion to build - 2½ times that of a coal-fired power plant - and much more to operate than fossil fuel plants. To build a lot of nuclear plants, say, over 20 years, would emit so much greenhouse gas it would take 40 years to break even in terms of CO 2, he said.
Nuclear power has always been predicated on the concept that future generations will be more capable than we are to deal with nuclear waste. The logic runs that they will, by that time, have cracked how to make it safe, and so therefore it is fine to leave it as some kind of intellectual puzzle for them to figure out.
Nuclear power offers the illusion that “something is being done”, and takes the steam and the necessary funding out of the urgency to start the programme of profound change needed.

[Nickeson]

Jana,
I don't have enough interest in the subject to do the research, but you might look into what kind of energy investment goes into the construction of a nuc plant and how long it takes to break even on that end. Maybe there has been decent analysis done on the issue that is presented in a trustworthy format instead of video drivel.

[Jana]

Wasserman and Caldicott are not drivle...they are the best there is.
Yes one has to consider energy investiment vs. energy returns, carbon output in mining and construction, and money in vs. money out. But the bottom line is the "moral" issue of the radioactive waste, which should deter any rational human.

[jimtzu]

more on HR 1055

is this paranoia?  conflation?  BS?

any thoughts?

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/9wJsovPRTEM&amp;rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/9wJsovPRTEM&amp;rel=1</a>