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[Michael]

Welcome to Heartmind version 2!

Sunday December 24 2006, Christmas eve- The Heartmind forum was hacked. 

Taking advantage of an unknown security flaw in the Integral Visioning software,  unauthorized access was obtained via an uploaded PHP 'shell' script, by means of which the database of both Integral Visioning and Heartmind forum were corrupted beyond repair.  All member information and posting data was lost.  Many important configuration files were hacked as well.

So rather than restore an old backup of the forum database, it was decided to just start fresh with an updated version of the forum software.  It is hoped that we may use this unfortunate disaster as an opportunity to make a fresh start, and even use the event as the means to better clarify what we want this forum to be...

The Integral Visioning website was relatively easy to restore, since no substantial changes had been made since the last backup.

Needless to say, the security flaw has been fixed, and daily backups are being made of the Heartmind forum database now.

A read only version of the old Heartmind forum, dated October 15th 2006 is available as a resource here.

[Michael]

original

Michael,

This might take a little discussion...a little rumination

It seemed to me that the forum had recently drifted off its original Integral Heart and Mind course. It was not attracting newbies and people who signed on with enthusiasm seemed to disappear. The regulars were probing for a direction, or perhaps that was just me. (I had started a couple of threads that I hoped would raise good responses from hearts and minds and maybe even viscera, but there was little to no response.) However those observations shake down, they lead to the question: Was the forum serving the purpose(s) you originally had in mind for it? Further, do you see venues out in the byte ethers that come close to the goals you had in mind of HM? (I'm asking these questions of you, Michael, because you have the responsibility for administration here and I want to know if you feel this effort is worth it? Are you satisfied? Are you still having fun?) I think these are considerations that should go into a final decision.

I have been poking around in the integral sites and blogs and am generally disappointed in what I find. Most of the ones that are not humiliating themselves with their vacuous Wilbercentricity are so academically dessicated I keep having visions of them as Death eating crackers. This leads to another questions: Is this all Integral has to offer? Maybe it is a dead end. Maybe it needs a strong blood transfusion and a hearty saline drip to get it juicy.
Hey, wasn't that what Heartmind was for?

I have been working on ideas for an essay or two into a sensory, artistic, chaotic and from the gut kind of Integral. But where to put them so they will be effective? One could drop words and ideas into the black hole that is now the personal blogosphere and be lost and alone forever. Or one could crash into another established site, which would probably provoke contentions that would obscure the validity of what one came in there to say. Or one could throw their own party in an authentic place that would command notice and regard.

At this point I see that I have ruminated myself into a position: If HM can be reestablished in such a manner that it is a good party venue for Juicy Integral, i.e. to serve the original goals, but with more specificity, more meat to chew and a dedicated direction, then I vote for Number 2, start afresh in a way that will make it a standout, breakthrough Integral site. I have no expertise in setting up or renovating such a place, but I will be glad to contribute provocative cuisine.

Steven Nickeson (JTF)

[Michael]

I?ve been ruminating on your words Steven.  Here are the fruits of my musings to date:

Was the forum serving the purpose(s) you originally had in mind for it? Further, do you see venues out in the byte ethers that come close to the goals you had in mind of HM? (I'm asking these questions of you, Michael, because you have the responsibility for administration here and I want to know if you feel this effort is worth it? Are you satisfied? Are you still having fun?)

Thank you for asking these questions Steven.  I find to my surprise, that it?s actually a bit difficult to get my mind wrapped around them fully.  There are unknown resistances it seems?

No I don?t see other venues that come very close to my original ideals.  I say ideal rather than goals I suppose, because I don?t really have much in the way of goals, other than I hope that whatever HM becomes, it does so by way of serving the greater good, so to speak?

My ideals on the other hand are what originally inspired the creation of Integral Visioning.  An integration of a variety of visions, the main two being:

1.  An inclusiveness that WORKS.
2.  The networking model.

It seemed to me early on, that Wilber?s work was unbalanced in the sense that his Vision lacked Heart (though there is plenty of evidence that he as a private person is bighearted).  I?ve been trying to better understand that through a number of lenses over the years, such as the Sacred Feminine, and the role of THEORY, IDEOLOGY, and AUTHORITY within a cultural movement.

It seems to me, that in all of those aspects, Wilber-integral is out of balance and slightly blind, or skewed?so I wanted IV to be alternative expression or visioning that would bring light to those blindspots.  My personal Heartmind ideals have been a continuation of that intention.

I think what derailed HM from the start, was connected to the fact that its insemination was coincidental to some of its core members having some serious interpersonal difficulties.  There was and I suppose, still is, a fundamental disagreement about what a forum should be in terms of a venue for disclosure, and/or a tool for resolving interpersonal problems.

Along with that has been some rude awakenings and disillusion regarding the dissolution of the IN forum and the wonderful, almost magical communion that sparked up there, and inspired a loose yet solid group of really good people.  We?ve been learning a lot, I think, about what online community is and what it isn?t.  But we don?t currently have a lot of agreement about that yet?


I now make my monetary living as administrator of the website Shift in Action, which is an alternative to Wilber?s I-I vision.  It embodies the values of the networking model, and the Sacred Feminine to a high degree, and in this way, it is a very satisfying group of people to work with.  It draws from a different age group, and the membership reflects that dramatically.  The members as a group tend to be much older, and unaccustomed to the ways and means of online community, and so need a lot of education and encouragement that way?

SIA's bills are paid via membership dues, and the draws to membership are the media offerings, so the actual online community software and development lags behind the media side of the equation.  What I do here at IV and HM is in response to that imbalance as well.

My continuing vision in terms of the networking model is very similar to the Multiplex-zaadz-SIA vision, which is to be a node in a much larger emergent network of cultural creatives.  I try to be a connective node by including conversations from I-I, Integral World, Blogs, Integral Wiki, and others as newsfeeds on the front page here.  I would include I-I.Zaadz if their newsfeed would work, but so far I can?t get it to work here for some reason.  I would also include any worthwhile input as a newsfeed from SIA if I could get that to work, but that?s yet to come?

So those are my thoughts for today.  I would like to be able to expand on some of these ideas, and elaborate a bit more on the visioning aspects.

I am grateful for your presence here Steven, and look forward to the provocative cuisine you tantalize us with?as part of the Juicy Integral visioning you allude to?

I am also very grateful to all the others who continue to hang in there while our little node in the larger integral culture shakes itself out.

Michael

[Nickeson]

Michael,
Many thanks for putting us back up in such a colorful do-over and for your soundly considered answers to the questions that I had asked. From time to time I ask myself what am I doing here and I have to admit that mostly I like to, want to, tell the stories that come out of my 30-year vagrancy toward integral wholeness, tell the stories like Ishmael (the whaler), or the Ancient Mariner, or Scuffy the Tug. There are a good many layers to that desire and I hope some benefit to others.

Not too long ago I was puttering around the SIA site. I found it a little difficult to navigate but it looked interesting and I am glad to have your observations on it. Maybe I'll join.

Anyway I'm working on a platter of stuff right now and hope to have it up in a day or two.
Thanks again,
Steven

[Daniel]

Good work both of you guys. Your inspired devotion is very influential. Thanks. Michael has stated some things on Wilber, his thoughts on Wilber's shortcomings and Steven as well.  I had a thought, a simple one and probably obvious. Could it be as simple as considering two of the major yogic paths? Raja Yoga being a path of the mind. Bhakti Yoga being the path of the heart

Hence Heartmind. Wilber without a doubt is strongly Raja. Wilber is a Renaissance man, including as much as possible in his AQAL matrix. The view is we need more heart , more feminine principle. It's simply a balance we are seeking. The age ol' Heart and Mind union. Personally, I do not feel disappointed about Wilber because I never expected more from his thoughts than he had to offer. I agree, there is much more to realize and uncover. Integral still is not Integral because it has the vacuum that Steven and Michael point to. It's no suprise really, I expected it. It certainly does not devalue the good that is there in Wilber's Integral world. I have learned much from it and am deeply indebted to it. But rightly so, it is a work in progress and we can contribute to that progress, calling it Integral or not, with or without Wilber (and speedy recovery KW, best of health).

I wish us the best of luck in this forum birthing novel fresh ideas and inspirations that can truly contribute growth into uncharted waters.

Dan

[marianthi]

Ah,

Raja and Bhakti Yoga. : the mind and the heart.  Like Heart-Mind, that make up the name of  this dear forum.   But, what about Heart-Mind-Instinct?  I was talking to Steven about this and I hope he elaborates plenty on the matter.   

In our brief exchange he spoke of how much Christians went for suppressing instinct so as to separate their animal selves  from their divine aspirations i.e. get closer to God (who-is-on-high, never on-low).  I spoke of how yoguis battle to ascend the life energy (call it Kundalini or whatever takes your fancy).  And in the process instinct, the fuel of life, is compressed, channelled much in that direction. 

I see it  all as fine and good as a partial process for those of us (and gratefully not all of us do it that way) who have sliced up our selves in compartments for the journey of ?inner evolution?. That is, we got our combustion engines tuned and turned to fueling our ?higher selves?  ?. but then, there has to come the ?return?.  Like the Knight who rescues his damsel as she is about to be burnt at the stake, we have to go back and rescue our instinct in all its glory and have it fully ours again   (now hopefully informed by whatever higher refinements it gets from the heart and mind who have ?reached? a few  inches above the usual by the mentioned suppressing techniques).
 
With apologies to Steven, I have to mention that Ken Wilber speaks somewhere of a  descent into the world after much spiritual work  (but in quite different terms -I like his use of the Centaur image in this respect).  Other masters do too.  I?m not into quoting them right now but, in my opinion, all this re-descent into instinct is a part of the much hailed ?integral process? of our evolution that is not sufficiently elaborated. 

So do please, elaborate! 

[jane]

"I think what derailed HM from the start, was connected to the fact that its insemination was coincidental to some of its core members having some serious interpersonal difficulties.  There was and I suppose, still is, a fundamental disagreement about what a forum should be in terms of a venue for disclosure, and/or a tool for resolving interpersonal problems."

Michael, the 'details' of any interpersonal problems are what they are, and as my boys say, arms ex'ed in front of them "TMI"--"too much information!"....but the underlying blind spots upon these 'details' use as a scaffolding, that, indeed, create the millieu for all such difficulties, be they interpersonal problems, religious fundamentalism, and so on.....these blind spots are really what I am here to try to 'see'....both my own, and others..... these blind spots, create 'forbidden territories', parades if you will, in which one is only allowed in the gallery if one promises not to be the kid that says 'the emperor has no clothes'..... and then there is the ensuing and distracting argument over who the emporer is, and whether or not, anybody has the right to mention the clothes, and who is really the kid....and what is truth, and Truth, and is there any real version of Reality...and so on.....and the only way through this muddle is a heartmind integration and a fearless exploration.....

I sincerely could not care less about the 'details' of ANY of the inter-personal problems that occured between any of this forums members, including, anything involving me....  but the blindspots that have been happened upon here and elsewhere, and how we as a community, either here on the HM forum, or in the world-at-large,  learn to 'see' these blindspots.....well, this is what I am interested in exploring....without 'right and wrong'.....with simply and sincere curiousity....and this curiousity is not merely about being nosey, but necessary because I think there is a treasure trove embedded in the process of learning to see 'blindspots'.......and this process is where we are, collectively, in our Kosmic Address.....And the only way beyond it, it through it.....

I hope this makes sense...
Happy New Year everyone.
Love Jane

[Liz]

I've been reading Byron Katie and it's left me feeling quite humbled and concluding I have too many views about too many things, most of which are none of my business. So my New Year's resolution is to try to do better, and to remember that when my head is in someone else's business I'm trying to live their life and that means I'm not here living mine as fully as I should be.

When I wander from that, as I undoubtedly will, prod me into remembering

Liz

[Michael]

Steven,

Looking forward to any such food for thought you might grace us with.   Thanks for puttering around on SIA, but I doubt it would be to your taste, it?s really quite tame and sweet at the moment?a good gig for yours truly though? 

Thanks for joining in Marianthi and Daniel. 

I love the work of Byron Katie Liz!  Though when I look at her website now, I?m a bit chagrined at the inevitable way that institutions seem to (d)evolve.  I got to know her work about 7 or 8 years ago, and it seemed a lot more fresh and alive, and was pivotal for me.  That and Stan Grof?s work, and the presence and teachings of Jack Kornfield.  And later Adyashanti?

I just revisited Jack Kornfield via his audio works, I have most of his books in audio form read by the author.  It was a great re-visitation.

For me, all of those influences, (and others unmentioned) point to the necessity of cutting through stories and projections by inward inquiry.  What can we know for sure?  Inquire within.



Jane,  please keep in mind that this forum is made of words on a screen.  You?re a great storyteller, a fascinating person, and obviously goodhearted.  And stories are your forte, and stories is what we make out of words on a screen.  I strongly recommend to you; placing greater value on physical interactions, than on cyber-interactions.  There?s enough trouble with in-person group physical interactive communication, when it comes to blind spot exposure, but taking it online - another step removed from pysical interaction via words on a screen is simply doomed.  I certainly learned this over and over and over again in my time on the IN forums, and I just wish I could somehow pass that learning on to you.  But maybe you have to find out for yourself?

I don?t know who or what ?naked emperor" you?re referring to, but for me, the emperor has turned out to be online resonance.  The much lauded resonant WE-space, that arises spontaneously, tantalizes us with its promises of Truth-In-Communion, and retreats again before we know it.  I no longer assume the clothed emperor of shared-WEspace-understanding, which is the only possibility for communal blind-spot investigation.


I was very fortunate to have had some really powerful lifechanging experiences in a communal therapeutic setting, when I did my time in the Holotropic Breathwork community.  So I can make the distinctions of in-person blind-spot-investigations, vs online communal investigations.  BIG FUCKING DIFFERENCE!   I understand that you?re going further with RAM, and I have high hopes for you in that regard.  I hope it helps to make clearer for you the distinction I?m making here.

I also realize that my original aspirations for IV in regards making a difference in Wilber-integral land are overblown, and based on a not very clear understanding of what online community was/is.  So I vacillate a lot about that now.  I mostly think of this place as being just a cozy social club where we can entertain each other with wit, news, humor, stories, essays, and have some simply enjoyable conversations.  That?s what it always comes down to when things shake out, and the ambitions dissolve in laughter?

Happy new year to you too!
Michael

[marianthi]

to remember that when my head is in someone else's business I'm trying to live their life and that means I'm not here living mine as fully as I should be.

Liz

I?m going to cheat and add that one to MY new year?s list, Liz.  So good to see you here.

A happy Ney Year to EVERYONE!

Marianthi.

[clearsky]

Happy New Year back at you too, Marianthi.

And to everyone else too, have the best of all the possible New Years -- start those resolutions with baby steps ( a 1/2 pound/week will total 26 lbs. by year's end).

Sending gender-appropriate hugs and kisses at midnight,

Bob

 

[Liz]

And to everyone else too, have the best of all the possible New Years -- start those resolutions with baby steps ( a 1/2 pound/week will total 26 lbs. by year's end).

Would that be 26lbs on or off?.........Just wondered

The New Year is almost 11 hours old here now, Happy 2007 everybody.

Liz

[Nickeson]

Good People,
Here is a happy new year wish, and also a wish for a New Forum-wide resolution for 2007:

"We will not dissipate the Integrity and Energy of any thread by posting off its topic. If we find a an interesting thought in a previous post to which we want to respond, we will pause for a moment to consider whether or not our reply will lead the thread into a digression that might be disrespectful of the thread's original author. If this seems to be a good possibility we will invariably copy the compelling thought and USE IT AND OUR OWN FINE IDEAS TO BEGIN A NEW THREAD. By means of this resolution we will not allow this splendid New Forum to degenerate into a parody of an cocktail party for academicians suffering from Adult Attention Deficit Disorder taking about other people's new year's resolutions."

I sign this pledge:
Steven

[Liz]

Steven,
Am I being, however gently, ticked off for my last lighthearted observation?
Is being that serious all the time now compulsory?

Seems to me the topic "new forum" is pretty wide, but I'll go off and start a thread called Liz's lighthearted quips if it makes you happy.

Feel like I've just been strapped in a seat belt though

Liz

[marianthi]

I am grateful for your presence here Steven, and look forward to the provocative cuisine you tantalize us with?as part of the Juicy Integral visioning you allude to?
Michael

Michael, 

His pots are on the fire.  Watch out.

Liz,

May you never be intimidated.  If we let these guys just go on endlessly with their heavy topics, we?ll get indigestion.  Lighthearted nibbles are required! 

Marianthi.