Intimate Relationship as a Spiritual Crucible

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[Francis]

Speak your truth even if your voice shakes. Especially if your voice shakes, since the quavering indicates that some reckoning between your inner and outer selves is long overdue. Pretzel people are powerless from fear of reconciling the truth with the charade that is their life. They're afraid of the loss of something precious. But "What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world at the price of his soul?" So the stakes are high.

Once we reconcile our inner and outer selves to a common understanding of our own truth, then we're in a position to enter into a relationship with someone else's truth. If their truth is different from ours, then something has to give, else we begin contorting again. Growth (hey, AFGO) is about letting new truth in and reconciling both our inner and outer selves to it. That is, as the Hendricks' say, swallowing it; absorbing and integrating it. If we cannot complete this reconciliation step, then we should reject the new 'truth' as false, at least for us. If we avoid the reconciliation step and try to maintain the discordance, by becoming pretzels, then we become hollow shells, drained of life force. 

A healthy union of souls demands an implicit consensus on goals. If the implicit consensus breaks down, then making the conflict explicit is the only way to try to resolve it. People are afraid to make conflicts explicit, that's why their voices shake and that's probably why the Hendricks' mention that it takes courage to speak one's truth. Pretzels embrace implicit conflict in an effort to avoid explicit conflict because they are cowards.

[Jane]

Francis, I would disagree that "a healthy union of souls demands an implicit consensus on goals".   I also don't agree that "if someone else's truth is different than mine, then something has to give, else we begin contorting again."  There is an aspect of relationship in which what is required is an ability to hold differences....and this means different truths.....and this includes all the discomfort that goes along with holding a difference.  For instance, it is possible to deeply truly love someone and for that person not to be the partner you will traipse through life with, not the one that you will wake up to every morning and smell and touch, and bask in the space of being together.  This is one of the most challenging instances to stay open and loving-- when to 'stop loving the other' would(in theory) take away the pain of distance and loneliness, when perhaps the reflex is to ditch that particular Beloved and fill in the void with yet another one.   

To sit with the ache of separation, to allow relationships to end without resolution(Thomas Moore writes about this in Soul Mates), to hold and embrace differences without blame or hope, and to keep the heart open in love, is an initiation of the heart, a 'steeling of the heart', a tempering so to speak.  And this tempering is a requisite for loving fearlessly 'without seeking or abandoning', a prerequisite for 'roaming freely'.  It means that every moment that two people are together, it is because it is what each of them 'want to do'; no deals, no arrangements, no consensus, no domination, no submission, no codependency, no pretending, no 'girding loins'(ha, I wonder what that means! )......

And of course, most of us spend a considerable time in deep fear that if we simply showed up and said and did what we wanted, we would be selfish, lonely jerks.... but in truth, I think most of us are lovers, fabulous, talented, devoted people....and there is someone or many someones, who we will find ourselves in step with on this grand adventure....and on this adventure, without any force or compromise or consensus, I can imagine that one can become partnered.....where I am giving what the other person wants, and wanting what the other person gives.....and having a wonderful time basking in this delightful beautiful garden....

Jane

[Michael]

There is an aspect of relationship in which what is required is an ability to hold differences....and this means different truths.....and this includes all the discomfort that goes along with holding a difference.  For instance, it is possible to deeply truly love someone and for that person not to be the partner you will traipse through life with, not the one that you will wake up to every morning and smell and touch, and bask in the space of being together.  This is one of the most challenging instances to stay open and loving-- when to 'stop loving the other' would(in theory) take away the pain of distance and loneliness, when perhaps the reflex is to ditch that particular Beloved and fill in the void with yet another one.  

Excellent!  Thank you Jane for cogently explicating that which originally informed this thread.  You hit the nail right on the head.

To find out our partners’ desires, we must sustain a conversation with them that helps to bring those wants and desires to light. Sometimes we have to do this even when they are afraid of discovering them themselves. The deep, abiding fear is that we will stumble across the desire in them that wants a life different from the one we are capable of giving (or sharing if you prefer) them. Essentially, we are afraid that they may find that their desire is to love something or even someone else… The crux then, the most difficult ground in the relationship, the portion of a relationship that elevates it to the level of a religious discipline or practice, is that I must “love,” must see the very part of my partner that could take this person away from me. I must keep contact with the part of the person that is pulling him or her into the future, though I risk not participating in that horizon. -David Whyte

To sit with the ache of separation, to allow relationships to end without resolution(Thomas Moore writes about this in Soul Mates), to hold and embrace differences without blame or hope, and to keep the heart open in love, is an initiation of the heart, a 'steeling of the heart', a tempering so to speak.  And this tempering is a requisite for loving fearlessly 'without seeking or abandoning', a prerequisite for 'roaming freely'.  It means that every moment that two people are together, it is because it is what each of them 'want to do'; no deals, no arrangements, no consensus, no domination, no submission, no codependency, no pretending, no 'girding loins'(ha, I wonder what that means! Huh? Huh?)......

Perfect   

[Francis]

Tell that to Mrs. Tiger Woods. People have different standards, Jane. I guess it all depends on what you mean by 'successful'. How important is intimate relationship? Is it more important than your life's work? It's all a matter of setting priorities.

I'm coming from the the viewpoint of 'what makes relationships fail'. You seem to be coming from the viewpoint of 'what is the limit of possible compromise.' There is no limit to possible compromise, not when we discount our souls to the point of being worthless without the other.  So we're left with: what is the limit of practical compromise? You must put a price on your soul; it's that simple. Not to decide is to decide. If you get less than you want; it's because you didn't demand it.

Having said all that I should also add that the secret to happiness is low  expectations. Low doesn't mean zero.   

[Jana]

"Having said all that I should also add that the secret to happiness is low  expectations. Low doesn't mean zero."

The secret to happiness is to not expect anyone or anything outside of ourself to fulfill our expectations. When we assume sovereign responsiblity for our happiness a greater identity with the whole of creation arises and the subtle fields of consciousness that constitute sovereign discernment act to navigate an ever refining path through the mystic art of life.

[Michael]

<removed harsh rant>

[Jana]

I sympathize with your rant but dems the facts. (I am not sovereign so that is why I am not in relationship in the technical understanding of the word.)

Technically speaking you gotta be sovereign before you can actually be in relationship...otherwise we are playing everyone elses music on your instrument. Define the boundary and you define the emanation point (Nassim). Incarnation is this ongoing process of boundary definition via the emanation point through time. That which is sustainable progressively emerges, as that which is unsustainable drops away.

Marko and Nassim
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_80ISFPryqc
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pMEiJbOMJQ
 
Don't worry, I will now respect boundaries and resist the temptation to spread the sovereignty virus into the spiritual relationship crucible.

[Michael]

I would like to encourage people here to express their opinions based on actual lived experience as much as possible.  If you don't have the actual experience, perhaps it would be a good idea to listen to people who DO have actual living experience in the matter at hand.

Why is it that those who don't know something via lived experience, tend to blather advice and recommendations, while those who do know something of the terrain are the best listeners?  Looks to me like the main reason that forums are so hard to keep alive.

BTW: the rant mentioned above was me going off on the maddening juxtapositions of simplistic, empty-headed, unexperienced infantile 'secrets', formulas, principles, assertions and recommendations currently plaguing this forum.

Time for another membership drive Henry?

[Jana]

I for one speak only from lived experience...I don't know anything else.

[Michael]

Allow me to recapitulate some things please.

First of all, Jane, it's really great to see you here again.  I love what you are bringing back this time.  Truly a pleasure reading you again...

You find me and us in some sort of transition, or phase-shift I think.

The shift for me personally is about my relationships, which I've largely been ignoring for quite some time.  Things are heating up in my life in some peculiar ways...mostly around and about another Kundalini rising.  K is and has been kicking the living shit out of me for the last few months.  It's moving to different areas of bodymind and heart, is is largely relational in theme.

One of the side-effects of that I think is the disgust with inauthentic bullshit that I experience within and without, and a strong need to purge said bullshit.

Forumwise, I'm disheartened by the reams of empty words that have accumulated here, while I've largely slept through it.  It feels like this place has calcified into wornout, mind-heart-deadening patterns of formulaic writing and speech styles.

Seems like something needs to shift.  I've welcomed Steven's re-entry as a Kali-like denouncement of tiresome writing and communication styles.  I'm hoping that there are others around reading this, that might feel like coming back to a forum again and having some fun...

We seem to drift in and out of this medium of connecting.  Maybe there are some around who are wanting to drift back in again...

[Jana]

Nonsense Stephen is have conniptions over word picking...words are meant to be thrown around liberally like fertilizer or compost, just for the heck of it. Not picked over like nits.
Stephen is not serious, he is just crabby.
Life is far to short to have a serious conversation.

[jimtzu]

it seems to me that the relationships of this forum are affecting people in an intimate way, itself acting as a crucible in the way we relate to each other. one of the reasons i like the heartmind forum is because it's small with enough different viewpoints to make it easy to digest and still be interesting.

Michael, perhaps a personal PM to those of us who might have been rubbing against the grain might grease the wheels to a more harmonious interaction on this playground.

here's part of a post from a flute forum i'm on, while at first glance it might not seem to apply to this thread, it strikes me that it does if you read between the lines.  it's from a Lakota flute maker describing a chat with an elder about different creation myths of the flute:

"it is important to acknowledge where things come from. When we pick a plant, a medicine, we acknowledge it, thank it for its sacrifice. We remember this and tell the story publicly. When we do things in a thoughtful way, this way is then living, and it becomes a Lifeway. If we don't give credit where it is due, and if we don't acknowledge our Relatives or our relationships, and act as though we invented something or "created" something, then we are not living a Lifeway, then, we are being religious or superstitious, this is when things lose their Relatedness and things become myth and folklore."

[Francis]

In order to experience anything new, authentic and original, you need to open up to reams of inauthentic, unreal and old bullshit. Just to get that 1% of new and exciting stuff. That's my experience and belief.

If you don't have the patience for it; welcome to the club.  Send me a pm that says you want me to leave and I'm gone. It's that simple. No hard feelings.

[marianthi]

I think that for many of us the need for  relatedness and independence (or intimacy and autonomy) co-exist.  I have yet to meet someone who does not long for both polarities in their lives.  Good love with a ´chosen flesh-and-blood other´does a dance of both and what a sweet dance it can be!

Those ´renunciation´paths where no mortal partner is chosen, an immortal one becomes the ´other´, call it the TAO, the Church, Shiva, Christ.

Much juicer than when a partner is a ´cause´,  even if that cause is to ´save the world´ or ´the environment´.  And what a headache for all approaching if that ´partner´ is a hammer you hit them with!  

I´m all for ´kisses sweeter than wine´.  An all-round elixir of divinity.

When it comes to friends,  a meeting of hearts and minds,  releases the elixir.  I think that the name of this forum was beautifully chosen.

M.

[Francis]

Nice. Keep in mind though; you don't get juice unless you squeeze the fruit. Even a kiss demands that we squeeze our lips. A little tension is required, painful though it may be.