$piritual Growth

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[Daniel]

Those who point the finger on Spiritual Bypassing and its dangers must also consider Financial Bypassing to have your shot at "spiritual growth".
Going in debt or spending money on spiritual growth (courses, retreats, materials, travel, certifications, teachers, etc) that needs to be re-channeled into more practical and long term needs.
The immediate argument is that the more open and "cleared" you are psychologically / spiritually, the better chances of making more money as a result.
Maybe, maybe...but maybe not. Are we just asking for more trouble down the road if we are not fiscally prepared and neglect other needs in the process?

[Michael]

I've had all my spiritual growths removed, and it didn't cost me a dime! 

But on a slightly more serious note, in my opinion, if you need to base your decision on a mainly monetary considerations, then it's highly unlikely that the things that money can buy regarding "spiritual growth",  EG: workshops, trainings, books, consultations etc will return much of anything on the $ investment.  If it's that important to you to go there, money will take more of a back seat.  If it's really that important, you'll get there and do it no matter the cost or other practical considerations, and if it's not really that important, then you're just pissing in the wind.

[henry]

Money may or may not create a "spirtitual experience"( beware them expensive hot sweatlodge rocks );  subsequent "spiritual growth" comes only with longterm commited Practice, which is free and difficult, and can be errant and fruitless . Moving Satori into Samadhi and embodying Bliss .  For further information, consult the henry Helpline

[Daniel]

I know that Michaels site here doesn't just materialize out of thin air. I am sure it takes a certain amount of funding monthly, quarterly or yearly to keep it up and running. And then there is no doubt maintenance which takes a persons time and energy.  Lets not forget who keeps the wood cut and the fire burning.

I am happy to see that a few organizations offer scholarships for expenses such as Integral Institute and Adyashanti. And referencing traditional churches, usually they never turn away anyone in spiritual need based on a lack of money. On the contrary, a traditional church will open a food bank. There's been a big spike in the need for those lately which is monstrously frightening for the richest country in the world. Shows how cold and hard freedom can be when in need of the legal tender..

Buddy, can you spare a dime? 

Calling Henry-Helpline, throw me a line!!! Is there a smartphone app for that?

[jimtzu]

just watch out for those that are re-packaging and selling "spiritual derivatives"  to make an Integral (TM, patent pending) buck and prophet-ing on the hopes and dreams of others.      

(just a little attempt at some humor)

[Jana]

We have to become hardened tot he fact that as long as $$ are being spent of spiritual merchanise there are less $$ spent on dorretos and beer.

Therefore a post cynical stance is essential when facing the public, but a snicker is permitted while in integral company.
The pressure of the greatest good is always on our back.

[henry]

Ptolemy Tomkins wrote an interesting piece for Lapis magazine years ago called "Wisdom Eaters", googalable

[Daniel]

"It comes in Pints?? I'm having one!!" 

~ Pippin / The Fellowship Of The Ring 

"One might see a 6 month jump in the progress of one's meditation practice when meditating slightly intoxicated (laughing)"

~ Alan Watts

"I've had all my spiritual growths removed, and it didn't cost me a dime!'

I'll drink to that!

[Nickeson]

Jana wrote: We have to become hardened tot he fact that as long as $$ are being spent of spiritual merchanise there are less $$ spent on dorretos and beer.

Therefore a post cynical stance is essential when facing the public, but a snicker is permitted while in integral company.

I have to differ. That statement is not post cynical....it is cynicism compounded by an unbelievably sanctimonious insolence! If one cannot face the public and say, authentically say, "Grace be with you my brothers and sisters. I am one of you, so grace be with us all." then one should crawl off into a hole somewhere and whimper and pout for not being able to rise to the level of the public. To call on the "integral company" to pal around and pat one's back for one's glib illusion of superiority is to stand on a level to which I will not sink.

God damn! Faux elitist feces like "...but a snicker is permitted..." makes my blood boil. I have been contending with it for 52 years and while I have not won every fight, I have not been forgotten in any of them. There has been blood and I have given thanks for every drop of it.

Cooler now. I have found that spiritual seekers are not all that different from square dance aficionados or militant bird watchers. Each one finds sufficient satisfaction in their avocations to keep going. Some similar aficionados and militants find sustenance in selling to the others what they need to keep going. Now no one tells a square dance merchant or a birding merchant that they are doing wrong in taking money for providing to others what the others want to have...to keep going. No one makes those kind of judgments. But when it come to the merchandising of "spiritual" commodities suddenly all is enveloped with the smog of sanctity and somehow spirituality becomes set apart from any other human behavior, unjustifiably elevated above square dancing and bird watching to the point where by-standers can offer condemnations of buyers and sellers as if it were any of their business what anyone else but themselves did with their money.

It doesn't make sense.

[jimtzu]

But when it come to the merchandising of "spiritual" commodities suddenly all is enveloped with the smog of sanctity and somehow spirituality becomes set apart from any other human behavior
It doesn't make sense.

my "jokes" were a response to the context of this thread. trying to put a humorous slant to what was previously said, and of course, falling into the same sanctimonious mindset, which to me is just the "other side" (how paradoxical) of a non-dualist approach to living in this world.

i certainly don't mind when Steven comes in with his kendo stick and wakes me up from a habituated response to things, even when i'm just having fun. 
 

[Daniel]

Latest on the heels of 'The Secret' and 'The Power of Now'
3rd book..."The Secret Power" ? , or will it be "The Glory" ?  

http://www.thesecret.tv/thepower/

[Jana]

Opium for the masses. Gotta love it.
The rash of fundamentalism is drowning the human spirit in smug persanctity covering the underlying guilt of being alive. Very twisted existential crisis.
I wonder if we will ever be over existential crisises or if we will have to regress back to the garden of eden in order to be healthy...
Unfortunately we  wouldn't even make a good animal anymore.
No going back.

[Michael]

Not a bad little article by Mr. Wilber.

[henry]

i agree that reciprocity is appropriate for any kind of helpful exchange. Bring some tobacco to the Medicine person . Beware a Nebraska evangelical selling Dharma transmission

[Lawrence]

 

God damn! Faux elitist feces like "...but a snicker is permitted..." makes my blood boil. I have been contending with it for 52 years and while I have not won every fight, I have not been forgotten in any of them. There has been blood and I have given thanks for every drop of it.

Cooler now. I have found that spiritual seekers are not all that different from square dance aficionados or militant bird watchers. Each one finds sufficient satisfaction in their avocations to keep going. Some similar aficionados and militants find sustenance in selling to the others what they need to keep going. Now no one tells a square dance merchant or a birding merchant that they are doing wrong in taking money for providing to others what the others want to have...to keep going. No one makes those kind of judgments. But when it come to the merchandising of "spiritual" commodities suddenly all is enveloped with the smog of sanctity and somehow spirituality becomes set apart from any other human behavior, unjustifiably elevated above square dancing and bird watching to the point where by-standers can offer condemnations of buyers and sellers as if it were any of their business what anyone else but themselves did with their money.

A few years back, on the old Integral Forum, a very smart lady once shared some words of wisdom, which suddenly come to mind;
 
“I can certainly appreciate where you’re coming from,” she stated. “ however –intolerance towards  intolerance, is still intolerance…”

On a similar vein, one could also postulate with equal validity that ‘sanctimonious posturing -against another’s sanctimonious posturing- is still sanctimonious posturing,’ no matter whom is doing the creative editorializin

Materialist’s, or Spiritualist’s? Haven’t we resolved this little conundrum by now?

Okay now, back to bird watching…